you madmen actually did it

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cokey
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Re: you madmen actually did it

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saellaven wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:54 pm
cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:29 pm
saellaven wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:57 pm

...and it is the Poettering followers that make up the core of the problem devs in Gentoo...
What what what what? I thought Gentoo was anti-Poettering
williamh, mgorny, rich0, asturm, floppym, et al are all systemd proponents...

A handful of us Gentoo USERS (and a couple devs) have stood up in the face of systemd and friends, or else I believe Gentoo would have gone completely systemd. williamh has done everything in his power to try to force systemd on us by also trying to break openrc, he lied to the Council to get them to issue an edict to try to cripple openrc, etc.

Poettering whines about Gentoo because, outside of Devuan and Slackware, it's the one distro that didn't totally cave. But look at the Debian split and you'll basically see the same game has been being played in Gentoo for about 7 years now... only there was more opposition here (probably because Gentoo users are largely more capable of fixing things themselves. I mean, how many of us have our own personal overlays?).

Look at the Council, ComRel, FreeDesktop, QA, and systemd projects and tell me you don't see some familiar names, including names that were advocating the hardest to close down OTW. Go look at just about any thread that discusses the merits, bugs, quirks, of systemd and you'll find the same names vehemently defending it and attacking users. The goal is to silence dissent and drive away the opposition...
OpenRC is excellent. I don't know what their problem is
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cokey
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Re: you madmen actually did it

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Morality124 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:14 pm
saellaven wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:54 pm
cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:29 pm

What what what what? I thought Gentoo was anti-Poettering
williamh, mgorny, rich0, asturm, floppym, et al are all systemd proponents...
... he uses KDE..
'nuff said
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Re: you madmen actually did it

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cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:10 pm
saellaven wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:54 pm
cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:29 pm

What what what what? I thought Gentoo was anti-Poettering
williamh, mgorny, rich0, asturm, floppym, et al are all systemd proponents...

A handful of us Gentoo USERS (and a couple devs) have stood up in the face of systemd and friends, or else I believe Gentoo would have gone completely systemd. williamh has done everything in his power to try to force systemd on us by also trying to break openrc, he lied to the Council to get them to issue an edict to try to cripple openrc, etc.

Poettering whines about Gentoo because, outside of Devuan and Slackware, it's the one distro that didn't totally cave. But look at the Debian split and you'll basically see the same game has been being played in Gentoo for about 7 years now... only there was more opposition here (probably because Gentoo users are largely more capable of fixing things themselves. I mean, how many of us have our own personal overlays?).

Look at the Council, ComRel, FreeDesktop, QA, and systemd projects and tell me you don't see some familiar names, including names that were advocating the hardest to close down OTW. Go look at just about any thread that discusses the merits, bugs, quirks, of systemd and you'll find the same names vehemently defending it and attacking users. The goal is to silence dissent and drive away the opposition...
OpenRC is excellent. I don't know what their problem is
That IS their problem... they worship systemd.
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cokey
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Re: you madmen actually did it

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saellaven wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:17 pm
cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:10 pm
saellaven wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:54 pm

williamh, mgorny, rich0, asturm, floppym, et al are all systemd proponents...

A handful of us Gentoo USERS (and a couple devs) have stood up in the face of systemd and friends, or else I believe Gentoo would have gone completely systemd. williamh has done everything in his power to try to force systemd on us by also trying to break openrc, he lied to the Council to get them to issue an edict to try to cripple openrc, etc.

Poettering whines about Gentoo because, outside of Devuan and Slackware, it's the one distro that didn't totally cave. But look at the Debian split and you'll basically see the same game has been being played in Gentoo for about 7 years now... only there was more opposition here (probably because Gentoo users are largely more capable of fixing things themselves. I mean, how many of us have our own personal overlays?).

Look at the Council, ComRel, FreeDesktop, QA, and systemd projects and tell me you don't see some familiar names, including names that were advocating the hardest to close down OTW. Go look at just about any thread that discusses the merits, bugs, quirks, of systemd and you'll find the same names vehemently defending it and attacking users. The goal is to silence dissent and drive away the opposition...
OpenRC is excellent. I don't know what their problem is
That IS their problem... they worship systemd.
I'm all in favour of a unified service system and unifying other things in Linux. In fact I think it's essential. What I also think is essential is choices.

I think systemd is the right system for things like Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE etc because anything that is "one size fits all" and homogenised means less work and less to go wrong
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Re: you madmen actually did it

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cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:19 pm I'm all in favour of a unified service system and unifying other things in Linux. In fact I think it's essential. What I also think is essential is choices.

I think systemd is the right system for things like Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE etc because anything that is "one size fits all" and homogenised means less work and less to go wrong
The problem is, once you move away from "one size fits all," aka, what I call "the one true way," you quickly end up having to fight it because it wasn't designed to do anything else... they took all the flexibility of scripts and wrapped it up in C code, hid it from admins (who may know scripting but don't necessarily know C well enough to change things, not to mention what happens inadvertently when you change a line in a program with several million lines of code that was never designed, just cobbled together), and "wontfix notabug" if you want to do something else... like, say, deal with NFS shares (not that we'd ever do that in Linux) or start a username with a number (which would give you root access). For that matter, Kay Sievers got kicked out of kernel space for trying to blame/break the kernel rather than fix the problem he caused in systemd.

I maintain that if you want to use RH (systemd), you might as well just use RH. At least you'll be supported when they break your system. Debian, Ubuntu, and friends signed their death warrant vis a vis systemd.

All of that said, I support anyone using systemd that wants to use systemd... I just don't want systemd infecting my system. However, with systemd being the all encompassing monstrosity that it has become, with other things depending on it (see elogind as a shim to try to help that), they're doing their best to be the one true system demon for the one true way. Goodbye GNU, goodbye kernel, goodbye X, goodbye everything, hello systemd. That was always their goal - they couldn't own the kernel, so they would take over the userspace.
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Re: you madmen actually did it

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saellaven wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:12 am
cokey wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:19 pm I'm all in favour of a unified service system and unifying other things in Linux. In fact I think it's essential. What I also think is essential is choices.

I think systemd is the right system for things like Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE etc because anything that is "one size fits all" and homogenised means less work and less to go wrong
The problem is, once you move away from "one size fits all," aka, what I call "the one true way," you quickly end up having to fight it because it wasn't designed to do anything else... they took all the flexibility of scripts and wrapped it up in C code, hid it from admins (who may know scripting but don't necessarily know C well enough to change things, not to mention what happens inadvertently when you change a line in a program with several million lines of code that was never designed, just cobbled together), and "wontfix notabug" if you want to do something else... like, say, deal with NFS shares (not that we'd ever do that in Linux) or start a username with a number (which would give you root access). For that matter, Kay Sievers got kicked out of kernel space for trying to blame/break the kernel rather than fix the problem he caused in systemd.

I maintain that if you want to use RH (systemd), you might as well just use RH. At least you'll be supported when they break your system. Debian, Ubuntu, and friends signed their death warrant vis a vis systemd.

All of that said, I support anyone using systemd that wants to use systemd... I just don't want systemd infecting my system. However, with systemd being the all encompassing monstrosity that it has become, with other things depending on it (see elogind as a shim to try to help that), they're doing their best to be the one true system demon for the one true way. Goodbye GNU, goodbye kernel, goodbye X, goodbye everything, hello systemd. That was always their goal - they couldn't own the kernel, so they would take over the userspace.
Yup, it's just not for some people and there needs to be a choice. I can see how it's a positive for big distros though because they are virtually all the same apart from the package manager and a few UI features. When it becomes a negative is when you have a distro that is very different, and not only that but also has a different ethos.
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