What ever happened to Compiz?

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cokey
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What ever happened to Compiz?

Post by cokey »

What ever happened to Compiz and the plugins? I hear that it doesn't work on wayland but is there anything like the plugin manager or theme manager (emerald?) still around?
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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Nothing works on wayland... it was broken by design.
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

Post by cokey »

saellaven wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:24 pm Nothing works on wayland... it was broken by design.
I've never understood what makes it different or better than XFree86/Xorg
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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cokey wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:38 pm
saellaven wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:24 pm Nothing works on wayland... it was broken by design.
I've never understood what makes it different or better than XFree86/Xorg
It's new and newer is always better.

Yes, XFree86/Xorg has accumulated cruft over the years that doesn't get used anymore. The natural solution would be to revise the specs (X11 is the 11th revision) to remove the unused parts and potentially redefine how things worked together.

Instead, what we got, was the Xorg developers complaining that XFree86 was too "cathedral", so they split off to develop X in a more "bazaar" way. They got bored with just working on Xorg and, teaming up with the FDo people, decided that what they needed to do was abandon ship to "do it right, for modern computing!"

You'll note that the FDO people are the harbingers of "the one true way." That is, you do everything the way they want you to, or you're wrong. There are no other use cases, there are no other needs, adapt or die. This is the way!

And in redefining how graphics were going to work, they didn't just throw out the actual cruft, they threw out things that, well, they don't use it, so why should you want to? Things like network transparency* (one of the things X got right - you'll note that the FDO people want network transparency in sound and media - see pipewire, just not in the graphics stack?) got tossed out too.

Certain graphics drivers still don't work well with Wayland and tens of thousands of developer hours have been spent trying to live in a world where everything works in both X and Wayland, because X isn't going anywhere soon (remember, for many of us Wayland was broken by design to be incapable of replacing X), but everyone is pushing it as the next best thing even though it's fundamentally broken (I'm trying to think of the package they pushed on us with X right before udev that forced everyone to reconfigure how their system worked, which was abandoned a year or two later when they pushed udev on us).

Anyway, how much more could other projects have been improved if they didn't waste all the time trying to work with Wayland when, inevitably, Wayland itself is going to fail because it was specifically designed NOT to meet certain use cases that X already can. See also systemd and friends.

I get it's fun to work on new projects and fixing bugs/updating old projects is boring... but sometimes projects are good enough or just need to be refined rather than blowing the whole thing up. This is especially true when the resulting project gets forced on to everyone else through leverage (a big player benefits from compelling others to use it) rather than natural adoption (where maybe the software is better and the market speaks). See also Windows 10, where you simply can't get a Windows 7 license anymore and if you're going to buy a computer, you'll get your choice of Windows 10 or going to a different platform, and even if you have Windows 7, you may have gotten a forced upgrade to 10 and/or MS's friends like Intuit may block your software from installing on previous versions even though the software doesn't use library calls that previous versions can't support.


* in a world where everything is becoming MORE transparent to the network, the Wayland developers took the bold step to say "fuck that, we're removing it." Rumor has it that they still can't figure out why adoption rates are low, but phoronix, always the shill for the next best thing, confirms that X is dead, Wayland is the future, and everyone is stupid if they aren't already on the train.
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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The irony of all this... To make it work from the perspective of the desktop is via Xwayland... xorg over Wayland...

A number of toolboxes have been ported to Wayland ... Gtk, Qt,sdl2 so if they are built with Wayland support the app should just work(TM)


But yes, this is a classic "not invented here" syndrom coupled with the all too common ... No appreciation of why things are done the way they are in UNIX.

Not to say Unix is flawless,, but things were do e for very good reasons. Now stripping the cruft out of x11 would have been the better solutions,pulling things that some deem not needed (ie network ...) Into their own modules .

I get why they did something since slimming it down for some IOT type devices or car HUD is sensible, but like this? Once they realise they need some stuff it will be a mess to bolt it in... Eg btrfs
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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saellaven wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm
* in a world where everything is becoming MORE transparent to the network, the Wayland developers took the bold step to say "fuck that, we're removing it." Rumor has it that they still can't figure out why adoption rates are low, but phoronix, always the shill for the next best thing, confirms that X is dead, Wayland is the future, and everyone is stupid if they aren't already on the train.
X is dead because no-one is developing for it, no security fixes, no compatibility... Its been a zombie project for near on a year. Redhat and co are doubling down on Wayland, so much so the RH8 1st release was screwed up because they didn't include x11 compat libs...
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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Naib wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:26 pm
saellaven wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:37 pm
* in a world where everything is becoming MORE transparent to the network, the Wayland developers took the bold step to say "fuck that, we're removing it." Rumor has it that they still can't figure out why adoption rates are low, but phoronix, always the shill for the next best thing, confirms that X is dead, Wayland is the future, and everyone is stupid if they aren't already on the train.
X is dead because no-one is developing for it, no security fixes, no compatibility... Its been a zombie project for near on a year. Redhat and co are doubling down on Wayland, so much so the RH8 1st release was screwed up because they didn't include x11 compat libs...
Like I said, they're all busy playing with the new toy rather than working on the old one...

Going back to the 90s, RedHat established themselves as the first publicly traded Linux company and used the money they raised to essentially buy a lot (maybe most) of the key developers all across the entire Linux stack (kernel, glibc, gcc, etc) and used their increasing amount of control to throw out the parts of the stack they didn't already control (via the ever expanding systemd). They control a good number of the FDo devs and most of the problems of "modern" Linux today can be traced directly back to RH, who, coincidentally, makes their money by selling service contracts to fix what they broke.

X is dead (long live X) and Wayland is the successor because that's what RH wants.

side note... HAL was the predecessor to udev that all of us had to change our systems for only to change it again, wasting thousands of hours among the Linux community. Again, FDo garbage.
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

Post by otw-refugee »

I don't think that wayland will displace X, at least not completely.

If one is on a single computer, doesn't need transparent networking or remote desktop, then wayland has more performance, well, at least when things work halfway right. But wayland is a moving target, or has been and that keeps things from being stable.

What businesses want is stable products, in most cases, they aren't after the latest and greatest dev "invention" unless it directly impacts their work world.


And yes HAL was horrible, but then Kay went into developing udev, so here we are
Kay Sievers is a computer programmer, best known for developing the udev device manager of Linux,[1] systemd[2] and the Gummiboot EFI boot loader.[3][4] Kay Sievers made major contributions to Linux's hardware hotplug and device management subsystems.[5] In 2012, together with Harald Hoyer, Sievers was the main driving force behind Fedora's merging of the /lib, /bin and /sbin file-system trees into /usr, a simplification which other distributions such as Arch Linux have since adopted.[6]
The only idea that Kay ever had that was somewhat sensible (I'm sure it was mostly because it was an early implementation) was the gummiboot (EFI boot loader) and the reason I liked the early version was it was text mode only. Well, it was good until the other devs decided to make it all gui and part of systemd. :roll:

And don't even get me started on merging /lib, /bin and /sbin into /usr ~le sigh~ More useless garbage from RH. *barf*
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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Let's not forget, Kay is so incompetent, Linus banned him from the kernel...

as we're talking about this stuff, has anyone heard from SteveL? His last post on fgo was in 2018...
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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This is a newly installed Ubuntu box for testing out some UIs (instead of just going with Mint (bad idea)) like Budgie, Cinnamon and Openbox and I just noticed Ubuntu and "Ubuntu on Wayland" in the login screen.

I clicked Ubuntu on Wayland and it crashed and brought me back to the login.

So we are currently in between a non-developed windowing system and a non-working one? Is that the state of Linux today?
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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cokey wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:49 pm So we are currently in between a non-developed windowing system and a non-working one? Is that the state of Linux today?
The broken one identifies as a working graphics system. The one that is still being patched but nobody wants to roll a release of actually works but is bad because the people that want the broken one say it is bad.
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

Post by marcih »

I guess the interest for 2000s-esque effects like a spinning desktop cube or closed windows burning up has died, just like the interest for cool media player skins.

As for the Wayland debate, I have a Maxwell GPU and MATE on my personal computer, so that's a non-starter. I did have Fedora 29 and Ubuntu 18.04 on a work computer with Intel iGPU though: Ubuntu on Wayland would freeze after login and Fedora's GNOME on Wayland would be slower and more suttery than GNOME on Xorg, especially noticeable when opening the app grid in the activities screen.
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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the pope has already finished waving the censer. The repo has not updated since 2016
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

Post by cokey »

I can't be the only one who misses the desktop cube... :lol: Or waiting for E17 for years upon years
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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cokey wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm I can't be the only one who misses the desktop cube... :lol: Or waiting for E17 for years upon years
I remember E17. :lol: That was 10 years in the making. Now they spit out a new version every year.
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Re: What ever happened to Compiz?

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Spent wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:56 pm
cokey wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm I can't be the only one who misses the desktop cube... :lol: Or waiting for E17 for years upon years
I remember E17. :lol: That was 10 years in the making. Now they spit out a new version every year.
Poor enlightenment. It was revolutionary when they started E17 but it was so long in development that it had been surpassed by the time it came out
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