Migrating from Gentoo

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etnull
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Migrating from Gentoo

Post by etnull »

Ok I think it's time for me to finally pull the plug on Gentoo. I decided to venture into something else, my goal during this migration is to find something to never again be tied-up to a single distribution. That means I want a fully portable package manager, not specific to a single distribution (or even system/architecture), so that in case distro management/leadership is fucked up I can switch without rewriting everything. All my scripts/repos and bootstraps should work across *almost* any system I happen to find myself on.
One choice I had in mind for very long time is Guix (package manager), however some things I don't like about it: 1) It's GNU, the portability across Linux distributions is good, but across systems and architectures is rather limited, for example I want OpenBSD support for potential use in the future. 2) I don't like the idea of learning yet another language to configure or install software, I would prefer good old Unix-y tools: make, simple "ports" like scripts, POSIX etc. Guix is much more radical in its approach. 3) I had no direct experience with Guix, but from videos and web pages it seems to me to be over-engineered, slow and clunky, for example you are rebuilding the entire software stack + deps each time you are changing configuration.
So not Guix.
Another thing I found recently is pkgsrc, a portable package manager. From my limited research it suites me well, Unix-like, supports BSDs, supports macOS, supports Solaris / SmartOS / illumos, even Haiku, very portable.
And since the base system is not that important if you have portable package manager I'm thinking of picking T2 SDE because it will further increase portability + the dev is very active and seems to be an adequate BDFL of this distro.

TLDR:
I want T2 SDE (as a base) + pkgsrc as a package manager, what do you think? Have you had any pkgsrc experience?
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Henry Crunn
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Henry Crunn »

What about Source Mage?
I've not tried it ... yet. It looks like a very primitive form of Gentoo ... a step up from LFS though.

It looks a bit dead too. :(
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Leonardo.b »

pkgsrc; it is an interesting tool.
Since it writes by default to /usr/pkg, it can safely be used alongside other package managers.
There is no need to run pkg_add as root: make a system user and get the directory writable by it.
Regardless of the system you are running, they keep a list of packages affected by security vulnerabilities. It is easy to parse, so keep an eye for it.
Setting up a binhost with pkgsrc is a breeze, that wins hands down against Portage.
On the other side, there is no USE and the Makefiles are not so easy to write as the .ebuilds.
There is no p.provided neither.
You must run some "cd" and you have a more hand-on approach, but that is quite nice.

Other things you may consider are the CRUX ports and Slackware pkgtools.
Of course, if one is not enough for you, go on and:

Code: Select all

mkdir /usr/crux
mkdir /usr/pkg
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Proinsias »

No idea but T2 SDE looks interesting, thanks.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by etnull »

Leonardo.b wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:48 am pkgsrc; it is an interesting tool.
Since it writes by default to /usr/pkg, it can safely be used alongside other package managers.
There is no need to run pkg_add as root: make a system user and get the directory writable by it.
Regardless of the system you are running, they keep a list of packages affected by security vulnerabilities. It is easy to parse, so keep an eye for it.
Setting up a binhost with pkgsrc is a breeze, that wins hands down against Portage.
On the other side, there is no USE and the Makefiles are not so easy to write as the .ebuilds.
There is no p.provided neither.
You must run some "cd" and you have a more hand-on approach, but that is quite nice.

Other things you may consider are the CRUX ports and Slackware pkgtools.
Of course, if one is not enough for you, go on and:

Code: Select all

mkdir /usr/crux
mkdir /usr/pkg
What's "p.provided"?

USE are not that important to me, 99% of time I use it to solve blockage, essentially agreeing to what portage is proposing.

pkgin can make it as simple as Ubuntu's apt, without "cd"s.

I think you manage dependencies on your own in Slackware, that's bit too much.

CRUX is nice, but I think their ports won't work on BSDs, plus the community is smaller than on pkgsrc. I also don't like capital letter in "Pkgfile" - call it OCD, but I hate holding shift to type something I use regularly.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by erm67 »

pkgsrc is the package manager framework, the ports tree is a different thing. openBSD, netbsd and freebsd uses different ports tree, since they need different versions and patches. Unfortunately a lot of recent software no longer works on openBSD so their ports tree contains the latest version that works, usually a very old one ;-) That was the main reason why I left openBSD. I have no idea of what is in the linux ports tree for linux but it will very likely contain the latest versions of most programs, like on *bsd!=openBSD. Just to say that it is unlikely that pkgsrc for linux will be useful on openbsd....
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by etnull »

Thanks for the info. Yeah in OpenBSD they like to cut-out stuff which is 'too big', 'too ugly' or 'too insecure', in our times that can be said about anything. I don't know how's their Perl support, I heard it was problematic because they hate big, bulky software. But Perl is more portable than Python, Bash and certainty more portable than gawk, sed or grep, it's faster too. I may rethink OpenBSD requirement.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by erm67 »

Or cut off software just because 'no dev is interested in porting it, or uses it'.....

Their ports tree is here:
https://openports.se/

there is also a WIP tree somewhere but stuff in the WIP usually has issues.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Shta »

Uhm... Your own overlay stuffed with edited ebuilds that will mask the version from gentoo whenever multiple options exist?

Whatever package manager you use, you will need some way to feed packages/metadata into it. Going independent means you have to do all that work by yourself, effective immediately. That's going to be overwhelming and completely unusable until you get A LOT of pieces right, up, and running.
I suppose a soft, gradual fork via an overlay/alternative repository cloned from something already existing would be much more manageable. If they piss you off on some particular package, only take care of that particular package.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by etnull »

Shta, Such approach will gradually lead to me becoming unofficial Gentoo developer, it's not my job and I did not make this choice. OpenRC, elogind etc. are their shit, and they should maintain it properly, or fork the distro, finally adopt systemd, and GTFO from Gentoo's lead positions. Why should I, or anyone else maintain their shit, when they break it or refuse to maintain? Especially giving the fact that after all your hard work as a developer they still will find a way to either not allow you into decision making club, or just oust you some other way, too many people stepped onto these rakes already.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by erm67 »

Did you consider void linux? It is possible to use xbps-src and compile everything, it uses a very simple form of ebuild. And does not use systemd. I have not used it for some time but the lead developer is back and their forums/rooms are very active (I am still in the room even if I don'tuse it anymore).
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Leonardo.b »

p.provided a shorthand for package.provided.
etnull wrote: I don't know how's their Perl
pkg_add is written in Perl.

Anyway, I didn't like much the Pufferfish OS.
It promises much more than what it has to offer.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Shta »

etnull wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:08 pm Shta, Such approach will gradually lead to me becoming unofficial Gentoo developer
Yes, that's true. Going this way you will become an unofficial Gentoo developer maintaining your own fork, and not being allowed to make any decision regarding the mainstream unless you gain enough traction and following to take it over.
Will it be a PITA? Yes, absolutely. But you are agreeing to this PITA by rolling your own distribution anyway. Whatever components you chose, you will be a developer of your distribution. Basing it on an already existing project will be much easier than starting from scratch.

Also, portage is a pretty good package manager: it tracks dependencies, ebuilds are usually easy to version-bump, and a very important thing - it builds software from source, which means you don't need a dedicated, external package factory. Building packages for binary distributions can be a PITA too, but this one is optional.
If you're fed up with Gentoo devs enough to completely leave the whole thing behind, it's OK. However, you still want a package manager that shares those qualities with portage, and also has a sizeable library of ready-to-use metadata.

Unless I get you completely wrong. In which case, go ahead and tell me what I missed.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by antae »

etnull wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:28 pmI want a fully portable package manager, not specific to a single distribution (or even system/architecture), so that in case distro management/leadership is fucked up I can switch without rewriting everything
ansible.builtin.package – Generic OS package manager
Installs, upgrade and removes packages using the underlying OS package manager.

Code: Select all

- name: Install ntpdate
  ansible.builtin.package:
    name: ntpdate
    state: present
Chef – package Resource

Code: Select all

package 'httpd'

package 'Install Apache' do
  case node[:platform]
  when 'redhat', 'centos'
    package_name 'httpd'
  when 'ubuntu', 'debian'
    package_name 'apache2'
  end
end
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by otw-refugee »

erm67 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:46 pm Did you consider void linux? It is possible to use xbps-src and compile everything, it uses a very simple form of ebuild. And does not use systemd. I have not used it for some time but the lead developer is back and their forums/rooms are very active (I am still in the room even if I don'tuse it anymore).
Looking at void right now. It seems to have the things I'm interested. Thanks

Edit to add: big plus to me, is that it seems to be almost as easy to build src as to pull binary packages.
To me not every package on the system needs to be tuned (march=native, etc) only some of them which means that a lot of stuff can be compiled march=x86_64 and that's what their pre-built binaries are built with.

I'm sure I'll find some negatives, the key is will they be more than staying with gentoo~ or less.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by Morality124 »

otw-refugee wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:21 pm
erm67 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:46 pm Did you consider void linux? It is possible to use xbps-src and compile everything, it uses a very simple form of ebuild. And does not use systemd. I have not used it for some time but the lead developer is back and their forums/rooms are very active (I am still in the room even if I don'tuse it anymore).
Looking at void right now. It seems to have the things I'm interested. Thanks

Edit to add: big plus to me, is that it seems to be almost as easy to build src as to pull binary packages.
To me not every package on the system needs to be tuned (march=native, etc) only some of them which means that a lot of stuff can be compiled march=x86_64 and that's what their pre-built binaries are built with.

I'm sure I'll find some negatives, the key is will they be more than staying with gentoo~ or less.
There's also Artix, which gets you the systemd-less aspect but access to the Arch package ecosystem.
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Re: Migrating from Gentoo

Post by otw-refugee »

The only disturbing thing from void is no /bin, /lib etc, they all point to /usr/*.

Crap, no /usr/sbin either, everything in /usr/bin, shades of where gentoo wants to go and windows already is.

Well, so much for that, though I do like the package manager, I'll have to see how easy it is to liberate it and use it on a completely built from scratch system.

I'll look at artix but I don't want to try and fight distros that do that do the whole merge thing.

Edit to add: Geez, has every distro drank the all in one dir koolaid. Artix is no go either.

Edit to add: the thing I do like about void linux is the package manager, so I'm grabbing that and see if it can be general purpose enough for my needs.
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