{Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

For all chat about the things in the sky without a central nervous system
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Naib
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{Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Naib »

in true OTW tradition, we have a nice Boeing failure.
Admittedly it's P&W rather than Boeing, but stil :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56149894
US plane manufacturer Boeing has recommended grounding all of the 777-model aircraft which have the same type of engine that suffered failure and shed debris over Denver on Saturday.

It said 128 jets should be suspended until inspections are carried out.

United Airlines and Japan's two main operators have already stopped using 56 planes with the same engine.

Flight 328, carrying 231 passengers, was forced to make an emergency landing at Denver airport. No-one was injured.

"While [an] investigation is ongoing, we recommended suspending operations of the 69 in-service and 59 in-storage 777 aircraft powered by Pratt & Whitney 4000-112 engines," the company said in a statement.

on an aside... Could Boeing be falling into the same trap that McDonnell Douglas did before Boeing bought them out?
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by cokey »

Pratt and Whitney have never been good at making engines
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Naib »

They are really good at military engines but lost ground in the civil to RollsRoyce, so much so they got driven out of the commercial market.

They then retargeted the commercial to re-enter with the PW1500 for the Cseries airframe and that is a crazy good engine.

Now I haven't bothered to check as to what era the B777 engine is from
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by ajgreen »

Enjoy embraer. Sometimes they're better because you're not spending hours and hours in an embryonic pose, but most of the time they do not serve wine at all
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Henry Crunn »

One of my previous employers ran its own company internal airline.
Well, it was the design authority for all the aircraft in the fleet, so why not?

The scary part was that aircrew were usually test pilots, accustomed to pushing the envelope in something much smaller, much faster and much more agile. Sometimes, it appeared that they forgot. :)
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Menelmacar »

Hate that high pitched whine Rolls Royce engines make while under high thrust. I trust my life in both aircraft manufacturers. The triple 7 is a sweet aircraft.
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Henry Crunn »

Menelmacar wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:47 am Hate that high pitched whine Rolls Royce engines make while under high thrust. I trust my life in both aircraft manufacturers. The triple 7 is a sweet aircraft.
I don't trust them but then, I've worked in the industry. Including, the safety cases, so I understand what happens when things break.
The tolerable failure rate is one fatality in 10^9 flying hours. The the accidental random fatalities when everything is applied honestly and works as expected.

The two biggies are "applied honestly and works as expected".
Look at the 737 Max. The failures there appear to be due to the methodology not being applied honestly.
Then there are the failure modes that nobody thought of, so the unspoken "works as expected" assumption is violated.

Fly by wire civils ... shudder.
Look at that Airbus that glided into the Azores ...
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Menelmacar »

Henry Crunn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:15 pm
Menelmacar wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:47 am Hate that high pitched whine Rolls Royce engines make while under high thrust. I trust my life in both aircraft manufacturers. The triple 7 is a sweet aircraft.
I don't trust them but then, I've worked in the industry. Including, the safety cases, so I understand what happens when things break.
The tolerable failure rate is one fatality in 10^9 flying hours. The the accidental random fatalities when everything is applied honestly and works as expected.

The two biggies are "applied honestly and works as expected".
Look at the 737 Max. The failures there appear to be due to the methodology not being applied honestly.
Then there are the failure modes that nobody thought of, so the unspoken "works as expected" assumption is violated.

Fly by wire civils ... shudder.
Look at that Airbus that glided into the Azores ...
Yeah, the flight controls on Boeing are superior, imo, to the joysticks on an Airbus.
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Henry Crunn »

Why?

None of them have any direct connection to the control surfaces. They are just electrical inputs to the flight control computer.
Even the throttles are not real. Just more electrical inputs to the full authority digital engine controller.
The flight deck is little more than a computer game console :)

There was a joke going around in the 1980's about the flight crew being reduced to a man and a dog.
The man is only there to feed the dog.
The dog is there to bite the man if he tries to touch the controls.

That's more true now than it was 40 years ago.
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by Menelmacar »

Henry Crunn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:29 pm Why?

None of them have any direct connection to the control surfaces. They are just electrical inputs to the flight control computer.
Even the throttles are not real. Just more electrical inputs to the full authority digital engine controller.
The flight deck is little more than a computer game console :)

There was a joke going around in the 1980's about the flight crew being reduced to a man and a dog.
The man is only there to feed the dog.
The dog is there to bite the man if he tries to touch the controls.

That's more true now than it was 40 years ago.
On a Boeing aircraft both yokes move as one. On an Airbus the joysticks are not connected.
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Re: {Boeing,Airbus} are unsafe, you should fly {Airbus,Boeing}

Post by cokey »

Menelmacar wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:51 pm
Henry Crunn wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:29 pm Why?

None of them have any direct connection to the control surfaces. They are just electrical inputs to the flight control computer.
Even the throttles are not real. Just more electrical inputs to the full authority digital engine controller.
The flight deck is little more than a computer game console :)

There was a joke going around in the 1980's about the flight crew being reduced to a man and a dog.
The man is only there to feed the dog.
The dog is there to bite the man if he tries to touch the controls.

That's more true now than it was 40 years ago.
On a Boeing aircraft both yokes move as one. On an Airbus the joysticks are not connected.
Those yokes aren't funny
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